Racism in the Church feat. Nicole C. Mullen | Dinner Conversations

(catchy music) – Today’s guest, I had
never met until today. Her name is Nicole C. Mullen, and what a sweetheart she is. And you know her song, ♪ I know my redeemer lives ♪ Anyway, she wrote that. Anyway, she’s our guest today, and she had a discussion with us about racial relationships and tensions in the culture and inside the church. – Inside the church, yeah. I think sometimes we think that race division is just a cultural issue, but we know that also
happens inside of the church, and so what we were asking Nicole, seeing what we were talking about, is what can we do to
meet that issue head on. How can we as disciples
of Christ be unifiers in our culture, in our
churches on race issues. And I think you’re
especially interested because you go to a church
– My church, Grace Church, Humble, Texas. It was started by a white family, and now it’s grown to, I’m the minority. I go in there and there’s no one in there looks like me hardly. But we worship together. ‘Cause you know our blood is all red. – That’s right, we’re
learning that relationship, getting to know one another, is the core experience
that helps us to actually unify and see each other, not as different, but as alike. – There’s one seat left at the table, and it’s yours. Let’s join the conversation. – I would say in our culture, let me say maybe American culture, but I think world culture, community is not, we are not interacting with each other. Do you feel that? And do you feel the tension?
– Who? In general?
– Just a culture of people, humanity – Right now.
– Is not communing with each other. There’s extreme tension
– Well, they’re yelling at each other. There’s a lot of heat, but there’s very little light. You know, they’re just on fire. Everybody’s mad.
– Everybody’s conversation, right?
– Yeah. Just yellin’ at each other.
– Monologues. – Why is that? – I think part of it, honestly, and I am, we’re all
creatures of our society in one way or another. I think part of it is, we are talking to this, and we get emboldened
by saying what we want to say here without really having, like one on one conversations with people, hearing what they have to say, interacting this way. And then I think because
we don’t know each other, we’re afraid of each other, you know. And so we begin to like, fill in the blanks of what we think about each other with
our own imaginations, our own stereotypes, instead of saying, no let me sit down and really get to know you, because I’m a lot more
likely to take up for, and to go the extra
mile for someone I love. – Sure.
– Than for somebody that I just fear or have an outside opinion about. – So you’re saying get
to know your neighbor. – Yeah.
– When I first met the Lord, okay in our church, we were taught to witness
to everybody, right? So we’d sit next to people on the plane, the first thing out of my mouth would be, if you were to die today
– Die today. – Do you know where you’d spend eternity? – Yes, yes, yes. – And now, as I’ve grown up, and I’ve got to know the Lord better, it’s like the Lord taught me, get to know them. Find out where they’re coming from before you cram me down their throat. – Earn the right to speak. – You know, I’m a gentleman, and I would like to be
introduced the proper way. Don’t just cram me down people’s throats. And then when you let
them tell their story, there’ll be a door that’s obviously open. – Yes, yes. – Well story will trump any, if there’s difference in a race, there’s difference in life, difference in whatever story is where we relate. – Jesus told parables. That’s why there’s People Magazine. There’s stories, you know. People love to hear about other people. – And he told stories
at people’s homes too. He came and he ate. He sat at the table. You know what I’m saying? Or he was at the fish fry. You know what I’m saying? – Yeah.
– Yes. (laughs) – He was there, and it was there that he told stories. It wasn’t just, he didn’t go and just. I mean he preached, but he loved on them. He demonstrated who he was by what he did. He got involved in their lives. He came down to where they were at, not just saying, I’m only gonna preach in the synagogue. If you don’t come to the synagogue, then you won’t hear me, nope. He went to the parties. You know what I’m saying? – Yes, he did.
– He went to where they were, he went to the streets. He went to where they’re being condemned. He went to where they were at in order to communicate
who he and his father were. – That takes actual time, energy, which translated is love. – Which is love, yeah. And I think all the time, ’cause he could’ve so easily have done like mass prayers, where he said everybody be filled, everybody be healed, everybody be made whole. And then he could’ve been on his way in like two seconds flat. – Right. – But according to scriptures, he took time and he talked
to people individually. – What is my role and responsibility as a white male in 2018? Who also believes that
everyone was created equal because God has created us all like him. – I think the typical American way is to ask what can I do? And sometimes that is
the right question to ask because we should do something. Faith without works is dead, and if we see our brother
or sister hurting, the good Samaritan parable. We should help. We should do something. I think sometimes the
question that we should ask, help me to see. You know the book of Ecclesiastes says, if you see the poor in a district and they’re being oppressed
by someone higher than them. It’s interesting how Solomon
says, if you see the poor. Because many times, as
Mother Theresa would say, we’d rather talk about the poor than have conversations with the poor. We’d rather give someone a sandwich rather than sit down and get to know them and understand why are you
homeless to begin with. I would back it up for many of my white brothers and sisters
who may be burdened, what do I do? Maybe step back and say, Lord help me to see what my
brothers and sisters see. Help me to feel what they feel. Help me to have more compassion, more understanding, because when you see and feel, and you are burdened. You don’t have to worry about what to do. The gospel is not just John
3:16, get me to heaven. The gospel is also Luke 4:18, where Jesus said he
was anointed to bind up the brokenhearted and to
set the captives free, to give sight to the blind, to proclaim liberty to the oppressed. That is the gospel, as much as going to heaven is. But I grew up with such a focus on praise, prayer, and go to heaven. But not really dealing with the nasty here and now of how to love my neighbor, who’s different than me. Especially one who may be
margin lost and poorer. But if we read Jesus properly, – Yeah. – I mean, man, his last
long parable in Matthew, the sheep and the goats. When you stand before me in heaven, I’m not gonna ask you
your theological position. I’m not gonna ask you your voting record. I’m gonna ask you how did
you help the least of these. And when we think about America, who are the least of these
historically in America? And what are we doing? What have we done to
help the least of these? Whether they be in prison. Whether they be naked, thirsty, on and on. So if the posture of
our Christianity doesn’t lead us towards people
who are margin lost. – Yeah, then are we following Jesus? – Right. – Dinner conversations are presented by Project Beautiful. Did you know for only $30 a month, you can save three people a year from sex trafficking around the world. Just think if this was your daughter, wouldn’t you be glad
someone is spending $30 a month to get her home? Go to project beautiful dot org, slash dinner conversations, and join Andrew and me as we try to stop sex trafficking in the world today. – If we don’t help, who will? Project Beautiful, because every life is beautiful and worth fighting for. – Or maybe I’ll say do you feel like this. That our church is also
affected and sometimes maybe infected by the division. Especially
– You talking about the racial division? – Yes.
– Yeah. So how are we the seed of change? How do we reflect something different? – How do we fix this? (laughs) – Why don’t we just say… – Speaking of covering it all. – I always have an opinion on something. – You know how long that question was and I put it into two words. – But you got to know me through it. – I love it yes, I love it. I love it.
– Fix this. – Fix this, how you gonna fix it? – So how do we fix this? Do we mix the races? – Easy to fix. – Absolutely it is a fix. I grew up in all black churches, all white schools, grew up in a mixed neighborhood. So from my earliest recollections, what was mixed, it was diverse. So I’m not speaking from
an all black perspective. I have children, two of
my children are bi-racial. You know what I’m saying. This has been my life. – From the beginning. – From the beginning. Some of my best friends are Caucasian. Some are African American. Some are of ethnicities. And so I’m not here saying they’re wrong, they’re right. But I do think that there needs to be, not just dialogue, but there needs to be like true respect given back and forth. Like I said earlier, like
Jesus heard their stories, to hear someone else’s story. Because if I hear your story now I have to validate the way you feel. ‘Cause your perspective is legitimately different than mine, and they are both real and right. The way we get together, we get it together on this bridge of like I respect what you’ve said. I believe what you said. And now because I have heard you out, I have a little more empathy for you. Now I wanna take up for you. Now I wanna say okay,
then how do I give up a little of what I have
to help you over here, and vice versa. So now we can link arms
because we’ve heard each other. We respect each other. And I think what has to happen is that, do I believe we need to have our churches a lot more integrated? Absolutely. I think it needs to be
represented from the head all the way down. So that’s absolutely a yes. But I think even more so than that, I think after church is what matters most. So after church, am I
willing to go out to lunch, – Yeah.
– With that family that looks totally different than mine. After lunch, am I willing to
have them over to my home. Am I willing to go to,
you know, their plays for their kids, whatever it might be. Am I willing to – Get to know them.
– To get to know them, absolutely.
– ‘Cause it’s hard to hate it when it has a face. – And when you
– When you get to know them. – Then they go from being just friends, brothers and sisters
– Or something you fear. – They become family. – Relationship. We were talking earlier about my cousins who live here in town. They’ve got two biological boys, Caucasian family, adopted Ethiopian girl. Lynnie is the most beautiful
thing I’ve ever seen. My cousin, who’s her mother, she was so respected the
culture she came from and wanting to respect that in her life, Lydianna’s as she grows up. But then also respecting her as an African American girl and woman, and not being African
American woman herself, like not knowing how to
take care of her hair, you know, practical things. And so, what did she do? She went and asked one of her closest African American women friends, and said I don’t know. I want to know. Teach me. ‘Cause she’s afraid
– Ah, that’s wonderful. – Being in the grocery store.
– That’s great. We give plenty about that. We’re like, look at her hair. (laughter) – That’s what she was afraid of. – We’re too preoccupied. She was wise. – I love that story. – And I’m sure she won
favor among the lady that she asked for help from. – Right.
– Sure. – Even though she’s going
after the well being of her daughter, you know.
– Yes. – At the same time,
she’s forming a bridge. – And she’s understanding
things she’s never understood before. – And you get to discover their food. – Yes. – You know, every culture
has a whole wonderful world of food.
– Like jambalaya. (laughs)
(cross talk) – Oh I love to go eat home cooking from some other culture.
– Yeah. – My sister’s ex-husband,
who I still dearly love and we’re all great friends still. I love him. He friended these African American people up in the hills of Virginia, and I mean they were just, he would talk about them. Tell stories
– Yes. – About them and made
them sound so wonderful. – Like, I want to meet them.
– I would say please take me. – Yeah, yeah.
– Yes. – And so we went up there
and they all loved on me and I ate chitlins for the first time. (gags)
(laughter) For the first time. I heard they were horrible. – They stink and yuck. – And they were pieces of the guts, but I had to try it.
– Good for you. I’m proud of you.
– I’ll try anything. I mean, no, I had to try what they loved. – Yeah. – I didn’t care for it, but I did find a lot of things, like I love chicken livers
and stuff like that. Anyway, I don’t know how I got off on that.
– We don’t all eat chicken livers. We don’t all eat chitlins (laughter)
just so you know. – I didn’t mean that.
– You didn’t say that. I’m just saying that I don’t like it. – Oh see, I love it. But they had a different take on family, a different take on fun. They were a blast. – And it enriched your life. It enriched you. – It enriched my life. – Or changed it. – Listen when I was growing up, I wanted a black friend. I wasn’t around anybody, ’cause we went to a
private Christian school, and I really think lookin’ back, some of that was racially motivated. Because our integration was happening and I wonder how much it was to protect us from what they were teaching, ’cause I was in Texas in the seventies. I don’t know. I was full grown when I heard the Martin Luther King letter from the Birmingham prison. I was full grown. – Yeah, ’cause they kept you away from it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. – And I called my parents. It was on a book on tape
that I was listening to, and I was like stunned. It was the most incredible letter. And I called my parents, have you ever heard about this? Well yeah. I said well why haven’t I? I called Bill and Gloria Gaither. Have you heard about, I
mean I was just stunned that I’d never heard about this. – Yeah, yeah. – And angry ’cause it was
not the education I deserved. – You know when I was growing up we played hokey poky, you know, you put your right foot
in, put your right foot out and all that stuff and you
go through the whole song puttin’ something in and
puttin’ something out. And I think we approach
reconciliation that way. We may put a foot in it, but we gonna pull it right out. Especially when it gets tough. When I get uncomfortable. When it gets hard. It happens in churches whether they’re homogenous churches or
multi-cultural churches, and people just wanna leave. But wow, I think love bears all things. We gotta stick this thing out, and so the world is looking at the church. And the church, unfortunately,
we’ve lost our witness. We don’t have salt in this area. – And why is that? In your experience, I mean I
know that’s a broad question, but think about it in
terms of racial unity. – (chuckles) Andrew, my man. (Andrew laughs) The church’s fingerprints are all over the racial caste system
that built America. The church okayed the slave trade. The church misused the Bible to say that people made in the image of God, were truly not made in the image of God. That we were cursed. That our lot in life was to be subjected to be slaves. That it was divine order for us. So when the church co-signs a wicked economic system, we can’t get that thing right in America until we go back again and admit our sins. And, no, I wasn’t there. But watch this though. Daniel confessed the
sins of his forefathers. Nehemiah confessed the
sins of his forefathers, because those sins had repercussions on where they were in the present. And where we are today, we’re suffering from the
repercussions of our ancestors. And if we’re not willing
to confess those sins and repent of them, and when proper, make restitution for those sins, we just can’t have an apology and, again, a shake hands, we need to address systems. We need to make wrong things right, but it takes humility. It takes honesty. If I was an abusive husband. Let’s say I beat on my wife for 20 years. Then year 21 I have a revelation. God talks to me and
says, man that’s wrong. And I say to my wife,
you know what, I’m sorry. Things are gonna be
different from here on out. And hopefully she’ll forgive me. But I can’t get upset with
her if I walk in the room a week later and she’s still jumpy and she doesn’t trust me. Because the time in which I abused her has forged something in
her psyche that’s off. She’s still afraid. And my words are one thing. My actions are something
else and it takes time. – And a consistency. – And consistency to prove that I’m sorry. – Has the evangelical
church in the Western world, American Evangelical
church, disappointed you? – Yes. Absolutely. I can’t remember the person who said it, may have been Mahatma Gandhi, follow Jesus not his followers, something to that degree. That I believe in Jesus, I don’t necessarily
believe in his followers. Oh it’s definitely a
disappointment, for sure. I was educated in a white
Evangelical institution. The lack of attention, sensitivity, towards issues that are
important to me and my community. Sometimes it would make me
wonder is my presence here only for entertainment, to make the football team better. Reconciliation without a
redistribution of power is nothing more than Colonialism. The essence of the gospel
is to empower the powerless. The Bible says that Jesus was rich, yet he made himself poor, so that we through his
poverty might become rich. Jesus emptied himself,
without ceasing to be God, to save people from their sin. If we’re not emptying ourselves, if we’re not lifting other people up, if we’re not giving power
that we have to other people, I dare to say it’s not the gospel. – Spiritually speaking,
what do you personally do with that disappointment? How do you hash that out with God? – Just lament. You stay there until
the Lord lifts you up. But it’s okay to pour
out your heart to God. And tell him how much you’re hurting. But yet I serve a God who understood sorrow, and was acquainted with grief. The Bible says he was a man of sorrows. So with the disappointment sometimes, you know, historically
for the black church, we would poor out our heart at the altar. We would weep before God. We would cry, we would fast. You know you see that again
with Daniel, Nehemiah. Before we try to fix it, oh God, hear my cry, oh God. – But it begins with humility. Am I right?
– Oh man! – Everything we’re talking about. – Humility.
– Everything points back to if we were humble. – Remember, is it Luke 18? They’re praying in the temple. Pharisee and the tax collector. Tax collector can’t even lift his head up. What’s the Pharisee doing? I’m glad I’m not like other people, and I don’t do this and I tithe. And Jesus said, I tell you what, that humble guy went home justified. But that religious man, wanna say Micah, we need to walk with him humbly. Oh brother. (laughs) – So if we are as diverse as we are. You look around the world, everyone’s as diverse as we are. If we are created in the image of God – [Mark] His image. – Yeah, then what do you
think that says about God? – It says that God is diverse. It says that God, matter of fact, he made
no mistake when he made different ethnicities, different colors, different cultures. It was intentional. You know, this is a reflection of Him. So first I think that
our own culture is the whole totality of who God is, is really just arrogant and misguided. – Yeah right, yeah. – Any of us. But to know that he is diverse, therefore he created diversity. You know that he has that inside himself, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, as we were talking about earlier. He didn’t make one color flower, and nothing else is – Wouldn’t that be boring. – Wouldn’t it. He didn’t just make
everything in gray scale. He gave us the colors and the flavors of life to enjoy. And I think life is richer and more full when we put those things together. – More beautiful.
– When we accept each other and say you know what, let me take a piece of your culture. Let me learn about that. Let me learn about this. Let me learn about that. Especially those of us
who claim to be a part of the body of Christ, especially. And I think we have an extra charge to be the ones who
model this to the world. Otherwise we’re taking cues from a society that really doesn’t
know how to do it right. When we have a blueprint. – Yeah we’ve got the spirit guidance, like the foundation.
– And we have John 15, you know, make them
want as even we’re want. You know he wants us to
love each other because that’s the way we’re gonna
show we’re followers of him. Not by how what we preach. Not by how what we sing. Not by how what we travel around the world telling people – How well we love.
– How well we love. – You say like learn a
little bit of this culture, learn a little of this
and take a little bit of this and that. Isn’t that then also saying
discover a little bit more about God? Discover a little bit more about God. – And his creation, yep. – Very good. I’m serious. – Cause I’ve learned
– That is good. – The richest lessons from other people in other places
– Yes! And other cultures. – Same with other denominations. – Yeah. – I was raised Baptist, right. Independent Baptist, which is, you know sometimes we’re independent of God it seems. (laughter) – We real independent. – [Mark] But we love Jesus. – We don’t need nobody. – That’s right, but we
were independent Baptist. So when I joined the Gaithers, it opened my life that
there are Presbyterians who are madly in love with Jesus. – Yep, absolutely. – And there are
Pentecostals who can do more than shout, they love Jesus. – Thank you. – There are Methodists who love Jesus, and I used to get Jerry
Falwell’s Christmas card and Tony Campolo’s Christmas card. They used to argue with each other on CNN. And they both loved Jesus
and I know both of them. And I’d put them side by
side on my refrigerator. And I’d think, okay here
are two men that I know love the Lord but they
came to just diabolically opposed political conclusions. Which tells me stay out of politics. – Well we need to be there. You could change a heart. – I know, we need to be there. I believe we should vote. – We serve in our service. That’s our service to
our neighbors, right. But it is saying what’s the main thing. And politics is not the main thing, and our opinions and preferences are not the main thing, that’s
the part about worship. – Yes, absolutely. – Where we’re not, where all our preferences
and our comfort lies is not necessarily the
heart beat of who we are. I think, because the
heart beat of who we are is in reflecting who God is, and that takes a great deal – Sometimes uncomfortable.
– Of surrender. Yeah. ♪ You and me may not
always see identically ♪ ♪ There’s some things where we’re simply ♪ ♪ Gonna disagree but ♪ ♪ A tune of many notes
can still have harmony ♪ ♪ A symphony ♪ ♪ ’cause I need you,
brother, you need me ♪ ♪ And they’ll know we are one ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way we love, yeah. ♪ ♪ And they’ll know ♪ ♪ We are one by the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way we love. ♪ ♪ Take my hand, walk a mile with me ♪ ♪ And you will see ♪ ♪ Together we can conquer
anything in unity ♪ ♪ Through the blood of
Christ he turns adversity ♪ ♪ To family ♪ ♪ Well I need you, sister, you need me. ♪ ♪ And they’ll know we are one ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ And they’ll know we are one ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way we love. ♪ ♪ There is just one Spirit, ♪ ♪ One faith, one body we believe ♪ ♪ Believe ♪ ♪ There is one baptism, one faith. ♪ ♪ Lord I know we believe, believe ♪ ♪ And they’ll know we are one ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ by the way we love ♪ ♪ And they’ll know ♪ ♪ We are one by the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way we love. ♪ ♪ by the way we love ♪ ♪ by the way we love, yeah. ♪ ♪ By the way we love ♪ ♪ By the way ♪ ♪ We love, love, love, love. ♪ ♪ By the way we love, love, love, love. ♪ ♪ By the way you and me
we love, love, love. ♪ ♪ By the way unity and diversity we love ♪ ♪ By the way I love you, you love me ♪ ♪ By the way, by the way we love. ♪ ♪ Love, love, love. ♪ ♪ They’ll see him by the
way we love, love, love. ♪ ♪ By the way ♪ ♪ We love ♪ – When we were looking for
a sponsor for our program, we thought not only do we want a sponsor, we want some sponsor that
is doing something eternal. And what I love about Project Beautiful, well is the interception. It’s about sex trafficking. Who knew in our day and age you still had to worry about sex trafficking. – About slavery. – And slavery. Well Project Beautiful is in the ministry of intercepting those before they get into sex trafficking, which
is what I love that. And they’ll go to like
airports and they watch and they’re in cahoots with of course, the government and the police, but then they go in there and they know what to look for. And they’ll flash a card. I just learned all this myself. They flash a card and
they ask a few questions, and they catch those sons of guns, (Andrew laughs)
and they arrest the trafficker, save the traffic, and bring them home. – They do, right. They monitor, so that’s how
they help intercept them. – Yeah, and they know the
red flags to watch for. – And then the interception begins. So Project Beautiful steps
in when those red flags are raised and they realize
this is what’s going down. They then step in and
to stop the trafficking before the slavery – Get the trafficker in jail, and get the children home. – And probably the ultimate
thing they’re educating them in the gospel, part of
the bringing home process. So they’re working in every angle. I consider it this really holistic way to be a part of ending modern day slavery. – Wonderful. – We love it. We would like you to love it too. – $30 a month. You will save three
people, three lives a year from sex trafficking. Slavery. $30 a month, $40 a month, you save four. – Yeah, it’s easy math and it’s obviously a calling that feels compelling to us. – Won’t you join Andrew and me? Go to Project Beautiful dot org slash dinner conversations. – Find out more, we’ve got a special gift for you there just
because of how important this is to us. – If we don’t help, who will? Project Beautiful. Because every life is beautiful and worth fighting for. – I need you to think
about, I mean it’s natural that I would relate to God as potentially as a white guy as a child. I grew up in a predominately Caucasian and Hispanic community. So I would see him in
some of those shades, in just in my imagination and mind if I’m putting human skin on God. – Or paintings or whatever you do. – Yeah of course all the blue eyes, you know the blue eyes, brown hair Jesus. That’s naturally what I relate to, but as my world view expands, as my perspectives expand, as my relationships expand, as my experiences expand, I can no longer just relate to the God of my childhood in the sense
of how I’m picturing him. You know what I mean? – And I think the more
we get into the Word though too, we get a chance
to see the real him too. Therefore it expands our world view. It expands who I love,
let me see who he loves. – Yes. – He went to the Samaritan who was the mixed breed back then, according to what they would say, and he spoke to her. – He wasn’t even supposed
to put his feet on the land. – And still he did. – He walked right up. – [Nicole] Exactly. – Middle of the day. – He broke a lot of these social, you know, whatever. – Oh yeah, everything. – He’ll break the law to get you home. – Sure will. So he did it, then why
aren’t we going across those lines saying I’m
still going to love you. I’m still gonna be your friend. I’m still going to,
you know, do what I can to serve you.
– When you gave a good example about go to church, find a family that doesn’t look like you, and ask them how would you feel, how would you do it
where you don’t make them feel like you’re being a project? – I think maybe first if you, even with an introduction, hey I’m so and so, you know. Really enjoyed having you guys here. Then maybe the next time, you’re like, hey, I would love to
maybe sometime you know, get together, maybe we
could do lunch sometime. You know, what do you like to do? Maybe ask them a little bit – Over time. – Yes.
– Warm up to it. – Yeah, maybe ask a little bit. – Stating your intention
when it’s appropriate time.
– Absolutely. – I would actually love to get to know you and your family. I would love to get to know, I see this, I’ve observed this. – And I wanna be a part of the solution. Being up front about it is fantastic. – Oh yeah. – ‘Cause we don’t do that, do we? – No, sometimes we wanna skirt around it. – There’s racial tension everywhere, can we get to know each other? I mean that’s really what you’re saying. – Yeah, but not like that, but yeah, you’re right. – That was scary, I think
there’s racial tension everywhere, wanna know each other? – But we’ve earned trust because otherwise you know what I think we’d do? I think we demonstrate otherwise. Because we can’t be
straightforward with each other in our interactions individually, we then have demonstrations
that are hugely divided. Someone asked me recently
what do you think about demonstrations in general? I said why don’t we start demonstrating to each other. – Okay, now what’s that mean? – That means why don’t I
demonstrate like either it could be
– Mutual respect right here. – Yes, even if there’s a conflict, or like I don’t understand something, or can you explain this to me, or can I be heard on this. And so you’re demonstrating love. – I think everybody has a
right to publicly protest if they want as well. – Sure.
– So we’re agreed on that. – Not gonna control that. – But I do fully agree
with what you just said because for me I’ve had people ask me, like Caucasian people say, well, I’m really stuck on this issue. Can we talk about it? I’m not trying to be
offensive but can I ask you some questions. I welcome it 100%, 200%. I love the conversation. Never been offended by it. And so I’m like please, if you have like, if there are things you don’t know, then let me be your tour guide. Let me show you another perspective. – Nice. – I get a chance to hear yours. You get a chance to hear mine. I get a chance to explain, and I’m not trying to speak
for all African Americans, but there are some things that I do know that are common about the way we think – Sure.
– About certain things, or the way we may perceive the reception of public opinion. Even like you got the black lives matter and you got this over here, to me there’s different
issues being talked about. The black lives matter, I
haven’t marched with them. However I will say, it
started from people saying, you know we want to be
heard to say that our lives matter as well,
not matter more than, but it matters too. And so with that, of course
you always have people that are gonna hijack
different things to make – Sure, sure.
– It become something that it was not. So you have that. However, at the core you
can’t say everything about it shouldn’t be, and they have no right, because they’re just a bunch of. A lot of them are politicians. A lot of them are
doctors, lawyers, pastors. And they’re marching peacefully, like in the days of Dr. King. – Right. – ‘Cause they’re saying
our sons and our daughters have the right to make it home. I’ve taught my sons, you know when you get pulled over, you go the extra mile. You show your hands. When they tell you to
do something, you do it. They tell you to get out of the car, you get out of the car. A lot of times that works, but sometimes even all of that doesn’t bring your child home. We’ve seen that, you know. So as an African American mom, there are some real issues that the African American community are saying, but ya’ll, I know ya’ll
keep saying we’re just crying racism, but we’re saying for real, there really are problems. – Right, right. – But if you didn’t grow up with it, I validate you all because you say I don’t see it. That’s not my world. And so, yeah, you’re valid in that, but we’re saying, but can you look at ours and give us validity and say there is something different about this. So how can I help, you know, not how can I put more fuel on the fire. – Right, right. – And how can I actually
be a part of the solution and demonstrate right here. The mutual respect, because
when we respect each other then, like I said
before, we go beyond just feeling like friends, we become family. – Yes. – And I’m gonna fight for my family. I’m gonna take up for my family. I’m gonna care for them. I’m gonna make sure
that they’re not abused. – And especially if you’re a Christian. Why do you think
– Especially. – Christians are as bad at this as the world, aren’t they? – Sometimes. – Because it’s fear. Sometimes it’s just we’re
afraid of each other. So we’re like on the white
side sometimes you’re afraid of the black people
and some of the blacks are afraid of the whites. – So fear is the bottom line. – Fear is the bottom line. And where there’s fear, you have all this other like malady that comes from it. – Yeah, disease.
– Because we don’t know, you know, we’re assuming. And I think if we go to know each other, we would see that we’re a lot more alike than we are different. We have a lot more in
common than uncommon. And that there’s love,
there can be love between us and mutual respect. – But you know again that
the Bible, Psalm 133, how good and how pleasant
it is when brothers can dwell together. – Right.
– Not just visit. – Right, right. – How can we intentionally
intersect our lives. And it’s gonna be work on everyone’s part. – There’s gonna be discomfort, right? – Yes, it’s gonna be discomfort, because I like hangin’ with
who I like to hang with. But again we follow this middle eastern Jewish man. – Yeah. – Who had a way of
destroying comfort zones. And if we’re really gonna follow him, then that means at his
table, as he told the Jews, there are people coming from north, south, east and west to sit
down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And what he was saying, it was paramount. He was blowing up their world view where Jewish people
pretty much, not only were they a monotheistic people, and people with a rigid moral code, but they kept to themselves ethnically, and they looked down on other people because they considered them not clean because they weren’t Jewish. And here comes Jesus saying, they’re gonna sit down at the table with our patriarchs,
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is the kingdom of God. But too often our sociology has greater power than our theology. And we’ve gotta flip that around. I’ll add to that, a caveat to that. Some of us are so theological that we’re not practical. We know the right answers. – So then we’re not seeing though. The facts was not seeing, right? – Not seeing it. I heard John Perkins
say when God decided to change the world He started
a multi-racial church in Acts chapter two. There’s something when the world can see people loving each other, who typically don’t love each other, or they have a bad history. But they can get over the history. They can confess those sins and move on. They can forgive each other. That’s power. – I have a question
because I’ve been thinking through this question in my mind. Is that even with, you
know the strides that have been made, that we continue to struggle. We know that slavery, Emancipation Proclamation did
not end slavery in the world. And it certainly did not end – Emancipation did what? – Did not end slavery in the world. – [Mark] Right, correct. And we know that tens
of millions of people are enslaved in different ways, from different backgrounds, different races, you know, this is not, in a world perspective,
slavery is still a stronghold, still an issue. What is it that is in
humanity, that is compelling us to enslave each other – Money.
– The pride of life. – Money. They’re making
money off those kids, right? – But where did I separate
money and treatment of – Well, they’re freaks.
– A human being. – Anybody who would sell another human is a complete reprobate. – But also a person created
in the image of God. – Yeah, but you know,
I think it goes back to and I’m gonna quit trying to sound like, ya’ll think I’m trying
to be super religious, but it goes back to the pride of life. I want to feel better than someone else. So you have prejudice. Regardless of what race
and what ethnicity, it’s I have to feel better than you. Therefore I have to put
you down, degrade you. And I know we have it all over the world, and I think part of the
tension, I’m gonna come back to this and I’m gonna get off of it, but even in the African
American community, like I was never a slave. So we can agree on that. However, I’m a descendant of slaves. And there are still some things I think in our society that have been perpetuated the mentality of it has been perpetuated. Even though some of the
exterior has changed a little bit. Underneath you still
have a system that has benefited off of that mentality or that the working of slavery,
then before you know it you have families that have
been separated back then. Then you have things
that happened even after slavery was abolished that
their systems that are still in place that perpetuate, dividing the family. You know, dads are now incarcerated at a higher rate in African Americanism than it is in the white community for the same crimes. That’s a fact. So you have this, so now
you have sons and daughters without a father, and now they’re trying to figure it out. But dad has been incarcerated. You’re not, all dads are not incarcerated. There’s some great ones, mine was not. I know some great African American men that are very upstanding, so most of us are upstanding. So we have families that are torn apart, and you have kids growing up without them. Now you have another generation, now you have another generation, you have another generation. Why are they out in the street picketing? Why are they out in the street rioting? Because dad’s not there. Not just because dad was bad, but because there are
still systems in place that stem back to the slavery mentality, not just for blacks, but in the larger community as well, to where it has perpetuated the same evil. And that has been something that has been perpetuated not just from the States, all over the world. But you have human
nature because you can’t legislate human nature. – Yes. – Therefore you do have these things, and only Christ can come to redeem that. If He doesn’t redeem
it, it can’t be changed. You can’t make laws that are really gonna change the way I think about you. You know what I’m saying. I can still go home and secretly hate you, – Sure, sure.
– even though the laws say I can’t do it publicly. – You can’t legislate a heart, right? – But Christ can come and re-write it and change it, exactly. So only really redemption through Christ can really fix the problem, and so we who have been redeemed, that’s why we’re the answer to it. We, the church. So if we don’t take our place as the redeemed of the Lord, then our society won’t be fixed. – In any area of discord or disease. – In any area, yeah, he is the remedy. And he’s given it to us, he’s put it in us to live it out, to affect the world. – You talk about teaching your children and your sons especially like what to do in a situation getting
pulled over and something, and I think about something
I would never have to think about potentially
with my children. Well maybe, I haven’t married yet, and… – Hey. (laughs) – But I am so grieved by
that, the fact that it would have to be different. That, you know, I almost
want to say I wish it happened to me so I could understand, or so at least we’d all be, either let’s all be treated well, or let’s all be treated evil. – Yeah, yeah, yeah.
– Then we’ll just go against the devil. – I think when you have
an opportunity to do good, do it. When you have an opportunity to stand up for what’s right, don’t back down. Stand up, you know. And you know what? Yeah, I know. – Like I don’t think everyone’s a mystery. I don’t think everyone’s different, just because we look or have different traditions.
– Well, you’re blessed. – That’s not putting me on a – I mean your parents
– thing. – Must’ve done something right. – We all have our, I mean honestly, every group has their thing though too. So everybody has a measure of prejudice in them that they have to deal with. It’s not just a white against black, or black against white. Everybody has a measure of that, and it’s all pride. You know what I’m saying? It’s how we feel better about ourselves. – The root.
– The root of it. So we have to surrender
individually to the Lord too and then say, what can I do, and how can I show love for my neighbor, regardless of their color, – Right.
– Their ethnicity, their culture. Those of us who have been redeemed, we’re called to go out and
to show that redemption in how we love each other. And sometimes that each
other doesn’t look like us. Doesn’t sound like us. Doesn’t dress like us. Doesn’t believe like us. – Oooh, now you’re meddlin’. – [Nicole] But we’re still called to love. – Love without an agenda is tough. – We’re just called to love, we’re not called to, we don’t have a heaven or
hell to put anybody in. – Right.
– We water, we plant, He gives the increase. If he doesn’t give the
increase, it wasn’t had. We still are called to water and plant. – He’s the judge as in He’s
like the justice bringer. Our idea of judgment, which
is why we’re so afraid of God’s judgment. No, justice is a judge. Justice makes things right. – And he’s also merciful. – Yes, merciful and mighty. – Amen. ♪ Holy, holy holy ♪ ♪ Merciful and mighty ♪ – We are not the Martins. – No, we’re not. Well, I did 23 and me
dot com and found out that I am 12% Jewish. – Oooh. – And I believe that’s the Jesus in me. – Okay. (laughs) – And I am .05% African
American, I’m sad to say. – Wow. – Not enough. – And also I’m part, I’m 65% Neanderthal. – What is that? How do you figure? – Seriously, there is
like Neanderthal thing – What is that? Is that a Viking? – I got a big head. Neanderthal, that was like the first men, that if you believe, well, you know, they say it’s like monkeys. Somewhere between monkey and humans. That’s what I am. I’ll bring it to you, I’ll show you. To learn more about Dinner Conversations, go to Dinner dash conversations dot com. – And don’t forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, that’ll
allow you to get a new episode every week. Like us or don’t like us. And leave a comment,
good or constructively criticism. – And if it’s really, really,
really mean criticism, we can delete you. (laughs)

About the author


  1. There were several priceless quotables from Chris Williamson that I actually wrote down. I am so thankful for strong and intelligent African American Christians like Chris and Nicole. Best program yet!

  2. You've heard a lot of talk; read materials on asset protection and it is important to know and understand them.
    But your credibility and reputation is the strongest asset you have and we have better do our best to keep it.
    1. You earn trust. 2. You are given respect. 3. You are shown loyalty.
    And you betray just one you lose all three. – Francis Kong
    #PassionPurposeProductivity #StartTheWeekRight

  3. "Why don't we start demonstrating to each other." Oh, Andrew! So deep! Isn't it sad that we have to even ask the question of how to approach people of a different color in our churches? Do we ever ask how to approach those that look like us? No. We just approach them. Why have we made it so hard? This was a wonderful conversation! Thank you so much. You guys have been missed!

  4. This was a truly important conversation.ย  I haven't seen, nor experienced, a lot of racism in my life thank goodness, and I've lived in manyย different places.ย  I know it's a fact…I mean I know it's out there, but most of the racism I've seen is via progressive leaning media….tv news, social media, etc.ย  May God have mercy on us all.

  5. Great episode, Uncle Mark!! Really appreciated it. I don't know if perhaps it was edited out, but I hope Dr. Williamson and your co-host did discuss the role the church played in the abolition of slavery and later the Civil Rights movement. I was a little saddened that the his discussion focused on the negatives of the church and seemed to ignore the positives. While it is true that many within the church condoned and promoted slavery and segregation, it was largely bands of believers, black and white together, who championed the Abolition and Civil Rights movements.

  6. These days the racism flows all directions it needs to be condemned when all people do it not just white people

  7. This is such an "on point" and timely conversation. Well done, Mark, Andrew and Nicole! The church of Christ needs this.

  8. Oh man, the conversation with this pastor was so saddening. When are we going to move forward? I praise God that I am not held accountable for the sins of my fathers. I am only responsible for breaking the chain of sin, through the power of the Holy Spirit & not be found guilty of repeating the sins of my forefathers. We stand alone before the Lord on Judgement Day. Nicole C. Mullins has always sung the prayers of my heart. Please know that I post this comment with no animosity in my heart. Only deep, deep sadness for attitudes still carried into the futures of our children & how much we all disappoint our Lord.

  9. Humble, TX, eh Mark? I have family in Baytown, TX & I graduated HS not to far from there! Small World ๐Ÿ˜‰ God Bless!!

  10. Guys, I've got to tell you, I've been having a similar conversation over the past months with my nephew and his wife. I'm stubborn, I'm right, I don't want to hear this, it's not my problem, the list goes on to justify my position. I'm a 60 year old white guy who is beginning to listen and learn, man it's hard, but I'm listening and learning. Thank you for this Conversation. I will continue to learn.

  11. John 15 : 'Make them ONE even as we are ONE!!' …. NOT 'make them WANT even as we are WANT…' … [Just a 'little' difference there!! The printing did NOT get what Nicole SAID!!]

  12. I am saddened that white guy has know suggestions in what to do. Its all on the black guy. White guy acts like he don't know nothing. Come on man…js

  13. The buck stops here,the saying goes. Please stop blaming other people for whatever issues you have. It's not Obama's fault,Trump's,your mother,father,aunt,uncle,the media or whoever or whatever else we blame,except for the fact the devil does have a major roll in humankind's division. SIN is why we are divided even in the church and our damnable infatuation with ourselves and not really being full of the Agapae love of Jesus Christ. We are so full of pride and hav'nt learn the art of death to self as we should and so this so called racial mess is still in our churches. The true church of the Lord Jesus Christ WILL have to get it right and she will before He returns to catch us away to forever be with Him where there will be no more,white church,black church,brown church or denominations. One Lord,one Faith,one Baptism. Until we all come to the unity of the faith (and race…my words)! Until then,keep crying out to God…If My People…

  14. When the pastor is talking about economic systems is he talking about capitalism? If he is then what does he want to replace capitalism with? Capitalism is just the free trade of products and work for pay. It's possible the pastor would disagree with me. Yet I hope he loves me because I love him.
    On the race issue, there was a comedian of African American descent who said he could not eat fried chicken, which he loved because of the stereotype. I wanted to hug him and say, "Let's eat some fried chicken together because I love it too and I love you."

  15. Paused @ 2:24 to add that people are afraid of each other simply because they're afraid of being humble. Despite what Yeshua said about it, few Real Believers ever become Servants, serving others.

  16. Learn about how God used the 12 tribes of Israel to build the Tabernacle, each tribe brought their treasures of gifts, some were workers of gold, some made fabric curtains, some carvers, everything according to the exact pattern God showed Moses. We are His Tabernacle, different in color, giftings, talents, customs, foods, but all beautiful, each culture is like the 12 tribes, having the same Father, each assigned to live differently, some were shepherds, some workers of silver and some made metal pots, iron pots, so on down the line…think about it..the Tabernacle could not have been made without one another and getting along.

  17. Great discussion. We stopped to eat today and had a GREAT conversation with a wonderful black group. The Lady gave me a cap I needed out of the fullness of her heart. Before we got in to eat we were having another conversation with another black couple. I had a marvelous time. Wonderful people not black just people. I only use the term Black as descriptive for context. One thing the second lady and I talked about was she was the only poor black child in the her school. Did anyone hug her said come over for dinner or lets hang out? WOW! I know I have changed today! How do we get the Church to change when it has become so impersonal? We are the Church! One hug or invite at a time! It is up to all of us Black or White to extend your heart.

  18. Nicole C. Mullen is a gracious woman. I like that learn of others it is so true, I have spent several years over seas. It is important to know people and cultures. But, Disappointed that some are stuck in reverse. Restitution?

  19. In my experience of churches, its not just the racial differences, but anyone who is seeking God a little differently to the church "norms" or "structure" is labelled. Openness and acceptance and seeing with the eyes of Christ, takes humility and love.

  20. I wish you all would've let Nicole talk more. She had to interject herself in the conversation. I see why this is such low views.


  22. Thank you for having the boldness & courage to even put this conversation together. This is a great 1st step to bridging the racial & cultural divide, so keep up the great work!๐ŸŒŸ

  23. I was blessed to grow up as an adopted white girl with an adopted sister who looks mixed or "light skinned" if you will and I also grew up with my dad being the pastor of a multi cultural/ethnicity congregation. I also remember being facsinated with black people's hair when I was young …call me crazy but I was..and yes I've had a black guy laugh at me for that. I've also dated a guy of mixed ethnicities and one of the ethnicities being black. I used to say "one you go black you never go back"…I'm a Christian now so I live by Jesus's morals and I've been married for 10 years and now have a 5 month old son. My husband's white btw in case anyone wants to know. Anyway, my point is, we are all people. And I can't imagine not growing up with people of different countries not around me. Now, when it comes to living biblically, that's where I'm strict. Follow the Word, not what you think the Word says. Follow Jesus. There is only one race and that's HUMAN .

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *