UCSD Pascal: Celebrating the Life and Work of Kenneth Bowles


(upbeat music) – I’m Dean Tullsen, as chair
of the computer science and engineering department here at UCSD, it is my great pleasure to
welcome you back to UCSD and to welcome you into our building and to our department. I know many of you here were here before there was a CSE department. But I hope that you consider us your home. I know we as a department
absolutely consider your legacy part of our legacy. The UCSD Pascal project
is part of our history and as history typically does, it has its fingerprints
all over our present. It brought us as a
department and a university but it brought us early
recognition that helped us recruit faculty and students. We’re still young department,
but we have shot up in terms of international
research reputation into the very top ranks. And frankly, I believe UCSD
Pascal is one of the reasons why this has always been a
highly technical campus. And you’ll see computing infused in disciplines all over campus. But it’s really been in recent
years that we’ve seen this, this really accelerate dramatically, and it’s really impacted who we are. Demand for our classes
has gone through the roof, but that demand has actually
come from two sources. The second one a bit less expected. Demand for a major, not surprisingly, because it’s happening
everywhere, has grown like crazy. But in addition to that,
students have figured out across campus that even if
they’re a sociology major, or a political science
major, or history major, that if they know how to program,
then they’re gonna be able to have much more of an
impact on their field. And so those students are
in our classes, not just at the undergraduate level,
but even at the graduate level, we have a fairly high percentage
of even graduate students that are non majors that
are taking our classes. And so this also means that,
in addition to doing a lot of teaching, but it also means
that there is a lot more interdisciplinary research
going on than ever before. Again, that’s happening all
over campus in small ways, but also real deep collaborations
with disciplines such as cognitive science and ECE,
the Data Science Institute, where we have shared
faculty in all those places, and it’s especially true
in the medical field. In addition to having a world class bioinformatics group here,
we also have several faculty with joint appointments
to school of medicine, using computing and
computation, in many cases, machine learning to find novel solutions to society’s critical health issues. So we have a lot of
students, that’s our secret, and we’ve been trying to hire like crazy. So, I’m not gonna go too far
into trying to catch you up with everything that’s
going on in the department, but certainly one of the
big things is student growth and trying to catch up with
that in terms of faculty growth. But hiring faculty is
slow and it takes time, and it’s because every time
we hire a faculty member, we are going after the very
best people in the world, which means we’re also competing with the top institutions in the world. But we are UCSD and we’re
already a world class department, and so we do have some advantages. And so we’ve hired something
like 25 faculty in five years, which is kind of a pretty
unprecedented level of growth. And it’s an exciting place to
be right now because we are a department that is very
junior faculty heavy, and junior faculty, do great
things, and they’re aggressive and they have great ideas and they build their research groups quickly. And so there’s a lot
of things are going on. Another area where I feel
like we are continuing Ken Bowle’s legacy is in education. So much of what he did and
what you did was really just about creating a better
educational environment for students. The radical idea that
programming, especially programming for students
should be this interactive experience rather than write a program and submit it to the mainframe
and come back tomorrow. And today, what you’ll see
is that we actually have one of the most celebrated
computer science education research groups in the world. And we are taking the best principles that they’re discovering
and coming up with and applying them
directly to our classroom. So we’re very pleased to
be hosting all of you, we’re excited about the
UCSD Pascal history. We’re excited about this
legacy, and we’re excited to have you on campus, I hope
you enjoy your time here, I hope you stay engaged with
the department because again, from our perspective, you are part of us. So do things like subscribe
to our newsletter and please, and come back and visit as often you can, and try and stay engaged
with what we’re doing. All right, so I believe the
next thing on the agenda is the video. – [Narrator] Kenneth Bowles
was present at the creation of computer science on the UCSD campus. In 1965, he helped Henry Booker create the applied electrophysics department,
CSE’s great grandfather, and Bowles used so much computer
analysis on his projects in radio astronomy that he
was appointed to lead the university’s first computer centre, and in 1974, he was
introduced to the LSI-11, produced by Digital Equipment
and packaged by Terak. – It was just a keyboard,
a monitor and a little disk enclosure with the CPU in it. Which is what we would
recognize today as a PC, but it was brand new
packaging at that time, very revolutionary. Ken jumped on it and said,
well, the Pascal that’s running on the Burroughs 6700 in
somewhat experimental mode can be transferred to the LSI 11. And once it was, and you
buy a bunch of these PCs, put them in front of students
now you’ve got a computer lab. – [Narrator] By the time
Demchak joined the team in 1977, Bowles and a fast growing
group of undergraduates along with grant student Mark Overgaard, had already built the
pseudocode operating system and UCSD Pascal, an
evolution of the Pascal programming language to run on the LSI 11. – And it grew from initially,
five people, before my roommates got into this and
maybe into 10 by the time I joined, and by the time
it was all over, maybe 43. – [Narrator] Between late 1974 and 1980, the UCSD Pascal project changed the course of computer science education
and made UCSD itself one of the early brands in computing. But with the growing dominance of MS DOS, UCSD Pascal began to lose ground. The undergraduates however,
scattered to other institutions bringing UCSD Pascal’s DNA with them. One undergrad ended up at
a startup called Apple. – Bill Atkinson, who I think
was one of the single digit numbered employees at Apple,
he took that and put it on the Apple II and sold it as Apple Pascal. – Okay, so Next on the agenda is, I think you’re all aware of
the Ken Bowles Scholarship Fund that was set up and the
university has already had the privilege of being able
to fund several students with this fund. Kenneth Wa, are you here? – [Audience member] No. – Okay, so we have one
student who had received a scholarship that
wanted to say something, but unfortunately she’s
gonna say it through me because she couldn’t be here. This is a statement from Michelle Young, who wanted to address you, and she received her BS degree in 2019. She says, “During my time at UCSD, “I majored in Electrical
and Computer Engineering. “Currently, I’m working
as a software engineer at Microsoft in Seattle. “As I interact with other
new graduate students “and hear about their college stories, “I cherish more and more
how amazing and helpful “the Computer Science and
Electrical Engineering “committees are at UCSD. “I believe that we truly
have some the best students “and leaders in our
community, from student run “technical events to sharing helpful links “on the Facebook page, tutorials,
job openings et cetera, “peer tutoring at the CSS
basement EC tutoring center, “we students stood together. “In addition to my fellow
peers lifting me up, “the Ken Bowles scholarship opened “many incredible doors for me. “Perhaps the most impactful
result was that the scholarship “empowered me to attend the
Grace Hopper conference. “At that conference, I was able
to attend their career fair “and network with some amazing
women in computer science. “Attending that conference
helped kickstart “my postgraduate career, and
I would not have been able “to attend without the
Ken Bowles Scholarship.” All right, so. (crowd clapping) So, thank you again, for all
of you that have contributed to that scholarship, I
think it’s having an impact, and will continue to have an
impact, but also keep that legacy alive which is
important to all of us. So I wanna thank our panelists
for joining us and so I think most of you know who
many of these people are. But we’re starting with
Mark Overgaard who actually (crowd laughing) Sorry, you chose that seat
first, that’s your fault. Mark Overgaard, he received
his MS from here in ’79. Next is Steven Franklin, who is actually a retired faculty member for
UC Irvine, he’s gonna give us a little different perspective. Next is Joan McNamara, who
received her BA in ’80. And then next to me is Richard Kaufman, who received his BA in ’78. And so that’s all the
introduction I’m gonna give you because we’re gonna start with having you introduce yourselves. So if we can sort of
briefly have everybody, first tell us what your
role was in the project, and second, just tell us tell us briefly, what you’ve done since
then in your careers, and so I’m gonna start
at that end with Mark. (crowd laughing) – Okay, so my role in
the project was sort of second in command to Ken, as a general thing, and then the, an addition to a variety of
kibitzing on various fronts. One of the particular things I worked on was the p-code architecture. We had taken p-code from the Swiss folks. But they didn’t worry about
space compactness at all. And so I did some studies on on how to encode it more efficiently,
which was crucial to get into the small systems that we had. And then since then, – That’s right.
– Thank you. So I was part of the group
that as you may remember, the project had to be moved
off campus because it was endangering the tax free status of the University of California. That didn’t seem like a
good thing to endanger. And in fact, I just learned
something in the last few days, which was interesting on that front. Julie Irwin Rucker, you may remember her, she’s not here today, but
she sends her greetings. And she lives in Del Mar, as
she and Jeff have done forever. She lives next to a guy
who used to work for CDC. She lived next to him for
all for forever as well. And a week or so ago, she was
taking him to the airport. She drove, they drove past
UCSD and she talked about how this reunion thing was gonna
be happening and there was honoring Ken and all that sort of stuff, he says, “I know Ken Bowles.” And turns out that this guy,
Bob Homeyer and a colleague, we’re in Ken’s office, talking
about a possible connection with CDC for the Pascal project. When Ken was called out of the
room, he came back in to take a phone call, he came back in
and said that call was from the legal folks at the
campus, and the decision has been made, that the
project has to move off campus. So Julie and this guy had
been living next to each other for decades and somehow,
it never appeared that they both knew Ken Bowles, or
that this guy was in the room basically, when Ken got that
news, so that was interesting. Okay, so I’m part of the
group that moved over to SofTech Microsystems, Ken
decided to stay at the campus and he ended up focusing on Ada here. And so I was at Microsystems
then for several years, then I went to Telesoft, then moved up to the Bay Area to work for,
a real time operating system company up there, and after
that, I founded a little company Pigeon Point Systems and
basically for the following 20 years, continue doing that stuff, Rich Vasse was a co conspirator on that. And even though we were
bought and then spun out, bought again, we still did the same stuff pretty much through that period. So that’s when I retired,
2017 and now I do photography. So that’s me. – I’m Steve Franklin. I was
a faculty member at UC Irvine taking Alfred Bork’s
software and perverting it for computer based testing. Alfred and Ken knew each other
from the days back in Alaska. And Alfred mentioned to Ken that there was computer based testing. Ken and I met. I think the big takeaway I wanna add here, is Ken’s real devotion to
undergraduate education. Not just in terms of the select team that became the UCSD Pascal
team, but he was motivated by, he wanted to create a
programming environment in which these students could learn and
learn in a self directed way. And that was, he and I really hit it off on that. I’ll just leave it at that. Ken’s influence, I recently
retired from UC Irvine where I did a mixture of
teaching in computer science and building the university’s
IT infrastructure, including as I was telling
somebody in fall of 1993, taking my Sun workstation
and making it www.uci.edu, where it lasted for six
months before the university caught on to the fact there
may be something to this. (crowd laughing) But just to give you another example of the profound influence that
working with all of you had on me, and working
with Ken most especially, it tuned me into the
value of virtual machines And Mark’s being extraordinarily modest in not fully stating the impact of taking and making the Pascal micro
code that could shrink a very complicated thing down to where it was really much more democratic. In any event, so I was
tuned in to the idea of virtual machines. And so I guess it must have been, oh God, sometime towards
the beginning of 1995, maybe it was 1990, it was
the beginning of 1995. I was about to head off to
the World Wide Web Conference in Darmstadt, Germany
because a colleague and I had found a way of using the web in that
case for instruction. In any event, I’m grading
a paper late at night, grading finals late at
night for operating systems. And the night shift
operator comes in and says, “Have you heard about Java?” (crowd laughing) Long story short, Bertrand
and I show up in Darmstadt, we ask everybody what the hell is Java. The Sun people don’t know,
but there are other people who are attending. And so we get a group of people
together to talk about it. I won’t go into the details of that, but here’s the real punch line on it. I came back from that
thoroughly convinced that because of the virtual
machine, and I had seen, over so many years, the power of that, starting from UCSD Pascal, I
managed to convince some folks up at UC Irvine, who were
currently working on developing a, yes folks, a way of using
computers in education, artificial intelligence,
all of that kind of stuff and so forth. Instead of doing it
with downloader program, why don’t you just do it in Java? Long story short, that became
the ALEKS, A-L-E-K-S project, which was spun out a few years later, after the university
learned it was possible to monetize scientific
discoveries at the university. (audience laughs) To McGraw Hill, I’ll just leave it there. But what I will say, is
that the teamwork that I saw in John Claude Falmagne
students working together to build this software, it
reminded me so much of what I had seen with all of you
years and years earlier. From undergraduate to
graduate to commercial, on to you. Not that you’re commercial,
but I’m just saying. (audience laughing) I have no– – Joan, you’re next. Let me remind you the question,
which is, what was your– – Was the impact Ken Bowles
had and what have I learned? It’s the people you
work with that matters. – The question was what was
your role in the project and what have you done in
your career since then? – Okay, let’s see, well I’m Joan McNamara, and I came to UCSD in 1976 as a junior. I had done my first two
years at Mesa Junior College, came to UCSD and I was
gonna be a counselor. I wanted to ultimately be a
counselor, and I joined the fourth college, it was called
at the time before it became Warren and I was told I
needed to take UCSD Pascal. It was a requirement. What is that? I don’t even know what
a computer is, right? So I go and I say, “Okay,
I’m gonna get this over with “my first quarter.” So I go take the class
and just fell in love with programming. It was so bizarre, I went
from psychology, immediately over to okay, I’m gonna have
a computer science major. But part of the big part of
that reason was Ken Bowles. Because he was so supportive at the time. I was, I don’t know, how old was I? Maybe I was already 25. So I was a little older, I had
a son who was six years old, who grew up running around
in the lab on campus here, but Ken was so supportive of
having the part of the project and in general, he was so
supportive of women and diversity. I mean, he just wanted everyone
who he felt was capable of doing a good job being
part of the project. And he really, gave me some great support during the four years,
I graduated in 1980. But I worked, main machine
I remember working on was at General Automation, one of those, their equipment and porting,
helping to port the UCSD Pascal over to that equipment. But my memories are all the
support that Ken gave me over those four years
because it was a challenge raising a child running around the lab. And he was really good to me, but, and after that I did go
to SoftTech Microsystems, and then I went over to TeleSoft,
but instead of continuing as a programmer, I went
into marketing and sales, which I regret a little bit at this point. I kind of wish I’d stayed
on the technical side, but I attended bar
through much of my career going to college and so I
like being around people. So that was something I
thought I would stay with, but after I left Telesoft, I decided that I wanted a change of career. I used to have a philosophy
that you shouldn’t do anything more than 10 years, it’s
time for something new. So I went to law school. And then I ended up being
a prosecutor for the City of San Diego and prosecuted, very early on, I was doing consumer fraud, some internet fraud cases, with eBay, and we were doing some interesting stuff back there in the 2000s,
and trying to stop people from doing consumer fraud on the internet. And so I think my whole
background, here at UCSD, and the knowledge I had
about computers in general really helped me a whole
lot in that area, so. And now I’m retired,
traveling, visiting grandkids and taking classes and
having a good old time. – Richard. – My name is Richard Kaufmann. On the project, I was
sort of the text file guy. And so that meant writing the
front end of the compiler, and also the text editor. And Ken was who I only started
calling Ken much, much later. KB was really influential in my life. So I was a punk sophomore. And he just kind of took us
all on right off the bat. Matter of fact, I think
because of the Pascal project, it was a lot more fun being an undergrad than being a grad student
and had more impact. So we were doing things back then that, I think the current CSE
environment here is like it now. Team based stuff like the
multiplayer gaming courses and things, we were
doing it back in the 70s, just hacking on Teraks and like. So that was really really neat. Anyway, from UCSD, I did the
Tektronix for a little bit doing a UCSD Pascal based
logic analyzer, that was a hoot and then came back when
everybody left to do SofTech, and then again to do Telesoft,
and then I went off to Sweden for a couple of years,
working for the company that eventually bought Telesoft. And then started a 20 year
history with DEC Compaq HP, working as the basically the CTO for high performance computing
and then cloud computing. So I kind of did the shift
into that math stuff I hated, I started to do for real. Going back in history, if
anybody remembers the name IIS, Institute for Information Systems. So that was Ken Bowles,
Don Norman, who was like one of the biggest central
folks in user interfaces, and then probably not a
lot of you guys remember Dave Rumelheart? So I wish I had paid more
attention to him back then. Because I’m doing AI
now, and he was the one who figured out back propagation
for multi level network for encoding neural nets. He’s insanely influential
in what is now AI. And so anyway, I did the
HPC and cloud computing for a while did some time in
Korea working for Samsung, and now I’m in Nvidia. I sort of, I’m the boss
of 15,000 GPUs that do AI. So my most contentious
relationship these days is with the CFO of Nvidia. My picture’s on her dartboard
for how much I cost her. And I’m also working on
orchestration software, Kubernetes, if anybody’s heard of
that, and then if you go to ngc.nvidia.com, that’s us,
where we have lots of containers and model registries. And now it’s kind of like trying to, I’m now kind of a pointy haired boss type. And it’s trying to keep up with everybody, because everybody’s like
smarter in a stovepipe than I’ll ever be and that’s why I wish I had paid more attention to Rumelhart because it’s all his stuff. – Great, thanks everybody. So next question is, some of
you addressed us a little bit but those who wanna add
something, what were some lessons you learned from the UCSD
Pascal project or from working with Ken that have
influenced your career? – It’s about working with people. And it’s the team and, the person to your left and to your right is extremely important and
Ken was very, very good at leveraging that and I say
this as a person who was not necessarily in that
milieu but the respect that people had for each other,
and that he cultivated, and he didn’t pit people as
best I know against each other because people seemed to
get along reasonably well. – And I even remember the order
of the purple bathtub plug? – [Audience member] Oh yeah. So, these days the way
you would put it is if who screwed up the build, right? Back then it was who messed
up the potential release of UCSD Pascal or really pulled one. And he used to reward that
person the purple bathtub plug. And you had it until the
next person messed up. But the cultural aspect of it
that was important was that yeah, mistakes happen. He never got down on
individuals for it, ever. I never heard him do that. Ever, ever, ever, ever. It was like, okay, let’s
learn what happened, let’s figure out what the root cause, people now realize I’m using words for how the kids do it today. But figure out what the root
causes are, document it, make sure the next mistake you make is gonna be more interesting. And so, he really built that
into us way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way back when. Nowadays it’s normal, but
back then it certainly wasn’t. – And I think the, as
others have commented, the extent to which undergraduate
so I was a grad student, but the bulk of the team was
undergraduates and the extent to which undergraduates
were involved in everything, in the deepest way, in the
making the whole thing work, I think was likely unique
on the campus at the time, I don’t know that for sure. And it’s only my wish that projects today, here in this building, are the same way. So I don’t know whether
it’s the case or not, but it is a very good way to operate. – I mean, I guess I could
add as part of the group, that problem solving was
like, we just really learned how to work at it as a
team to solve problems and so that to me can translate into all aspects of your life and
certainly helped me a lot not only in law school, I
mean, I just felt like I had a real advantage in law school
based upon my experiences here at UCSD and what I
did in the computer field and to brag a little bit
did great in law school. And then on to being a
prosecutor and then being able to fully understand what’s going
on out there on the internet at the time and it was interesting, we’d get these classes by
the FTC on internet fraud, very basic stuff and
everything and it was like, and most of the time,
people couldn’t understand what they were talking about. But fortunately, I was able
to, thanks to Ken and UCSD, understand how the whole
thing worked but for me, it was the team spirit
and the whole, the ability to solve problems that I came away with as being really helpful. – And I would add one other thing, that hugely affected my life I think, and that is watching
Ken make things happen, make connections with UCI
with every person in the world that appeared, it was just fabulous, and working through how to
propose so and so to this project to General Automation or
to Tarak or to whomever, he was just a master at at
facilitating and bringing things together and making things
happen, and a lot of my success and doing the same i think is credit to my ability to watch him do that. – He wouldn’t have kicked
us out of his office if he was having a
phone call with anybody. He used to just used to just hang out, it was like a clubhouse and
he’d have a call going with somebody and he’d tell you
what was going on before, during and after. – Actually, this takes me to
my next question, which is, does anybody have any
anecdotes they wanted to share something that illustrates who Ken was, what the culture in the in the group was? – So it actually is my
comment there follows the main thing I just said. So Sunday afternoons, I was
usually on campus, there weren’t very many people on campus
typically on Sunday afternoons, he was typically at home. And as often as not we
were on the phone together, he would have some new prospectus to accompany to another campus. He, prospecti was what Ken
did and and so we would chat about this prospectus,
this proposal to some outfit and how it would be received,
what their concerns were, what the project’s abilities
were, all that kind of stuff. And so it was a it was a live time for seeing this dynamo
of energy in operation and I really valued that time. – I didn’t see that side of Ken that much because I was your undergrad. But what and my story’s
more personal I think, and what if I may share? If that’s okay? And so I mentioned that
I had a son, a young son and I was tending bar
when I, to make a living on weekend nights as I when
I first started at UCSD and the bar got taken
over after a year or two and I was really concerned
about being able to stay at UCSD and afford things, and I
was talking to Ken about having to maybe leave
the project to go off and do something you
know else or try to get some other kind of job but
but he talked me into staying, he helped me and
supported me through that, he also found a way for me
to get some extra funding of some sort, so I could stay on campus and make it all work and
so for me, he was just instrumental in me graduating
from UCSD and then going on to what I did, so I just
was always grateful to him for being a dad of sorts
(laughs) but he was great. – I have two really quick printer stories. (laughter) The first one was early
days of the project, we got this Printronix printer,
which was this really fancy thing, and we had this LSI-11
but hooking up the two, well there was a nine month
wait from Digital to get the UNIBUS card that would act
as a printer controller. And I almost heard him swear,
he was really mad about this. He came in one Saturday
with a wire wrap gun in his back pocket and a motherboard. And he just said, “The hell with this.” And he built a printer an LP
11 UNIBUS, controller bar, put it in and the damn thing
worked, and I was like, Long after he’d left Telesoft,
and he had just bought a printer, and he was on
the phone with me saying, “What the hell is with 150
Megabyte printer driver? “We developed a whole operating
system that could run in “48 kilobytes, what the
heck is this thing doing?” And at the time, I worked at
Hewlett Packard, of course. (laughs) – Great, I’m gonna ask
one last question for me and then I’m gonna open
it up to the audience. But what would you identify
as the legacy of the UCSD Pascal project? And look, a lot of legacy
is here in this room. And we’ve talked a lot I think
about the personal legacy, but I’d actually like to
focus a little bit on the technical legacy. What do you think are
really the things that have lasted and impacted? – I started the last few times, so he – I’ve been talking a lot,
why don’t we pick somebody from somebody in the audience. – I have an informal hypothesis right now that I’ve been sharing with a
couple of people around here that Ken’s biggest technical
legacy may not be pseudo code which turned into Java and
JVM, which is what everyone recognizes, but there seems to
be a plausible case that Ken was the father of the command
line, which if you think of every Windows or Macintosh
screen in the world that has a little line of words across
the top that says like File, Edit, and then all the other things, well, that came from UCSD
Pascal, and from there it went to Apple and from Apple it
got onto the Macintosh with a little mouse
assist, but it doesn’t seem to trace back to Xerox and
the story is that Apple got the Mac interface from
Xerox, but the question is as far as we can tell
Apple got the Command Line from UCSD Pascal and from
talking to folks here, it seems to have come from
Ken, there may be a few other variants of it that Richard
knows about, but right now, there is a plausible
research topic to be pursued, which is, was Ken Bowles the
father of the command line? That’s a pretty big legacy. – Well, I seem to remember and unless I’m remembering incorrectly,
that UCSD had the first, Pascal had the first text
editor, or one of the first ones, screen oriented text
editor and so that to me, and that when I often talk to people about being on the project, like
I say that it seemed like that came from Ken, our ability
to do that on the screen. – I mean, not on Richard’s fingertips– – Well, guidance of Ken, I guess. – So my question for Richard
is, do you think that’s true? I’d be surprised if that’s true. – So there were editors
from the CCL system at MIT, and, that we’re full screen,
but the general interactivity and the command line that was
a mixture of stuff that we cooked up in the Pascal project
and let’s put it this way, we didn’t have much source
material to work with when we were doing it. But folks were doing full screen editors. But the real trick for UCSD Pascal wasn’t that any one component was unique, the command lines, Purdue’s
system was at Lego? – The Seymour Papert things– – Well, the Seymour Papert thing was MIT. That had a had a bit of a command line. The Purdue’s system, I forget its name, had a bit of a command
line, but it didn’t look anything at all like UCSD
Pascal’s, the big trick was, if you were a mere mortal, the
system that you used involved a key punch and it
involved sacrificing goats to get machine time on a
big mainframe someplace. And so it was getting all of
the best of what was possible at the time, arguably extending it a bit and getting it to work on a small computer that you could get interactivity with. So instead, if you were
trying to learn how to program instead of being, if you were
lucky, one hour or worse, an overnight submission, it
was you could try it right then and see if it worked. Roger will remember this,
but we were really lucky because we had ZZ accounts
at the computer center here, which basically gave us unlimited time. And we were chewing up, I was
probably chewing up 5000 bucks a month in compute time, just by myself and I was a piker compared to Roger. And it was disgusting
with punch cards and, but second, we got self hosting. That’s a key thing. We were I think the first of
the self hosted systems ever, we could develop the system on
the system, the interactivity and the productivity
improvement was insane. And everything from, I
think we started that, and I think everything else has just been keeping that alive. – I’ll take this discussion
of the historicity of various things offline. As to when things happen, I
think I can add some stuff. What I would like to do
is hijack some of this film thing here to point
out Ken’s contribution to education. It’s not about the UCSD Pascal project, but since this is being recorded,
you were the benefit of it and a number of other people were. Ken, innovative arrangement,
or the order in which things were presented, and is
incorporating of Papert’s turtle graphics, and his
recognition of the importance that if you’re gonna teach, if
you’re gonna learn programming, it helps to have a problem
domain that makes sense to you. Figuring out what the roots
of a quadratic equation is, does not necessarily help
you that much to understand the basic flow of logic. And to this day, I think
that the order in which he arranged things,
starting with the basics, moving to encapsulation very early on, he had a successor to that in the Karel, Karel the robot Rich
Pattis’s, at Stanford that long after the UCSD Pascal project passed, that became very influential
in undergraduate education. So it’s not about the legacy
of the Pascal project, it’s about the legacy of Ken Bowles, I got it right this time. In terms of understanding what would help people achieve understanding things
from their perspective, you’re a beginner, how
can I arrange these things so it makes sense to you? Back to the legacy of the project. – I think it’s the legacy of Ken and – Yeah, well, – very important legacy of the project. The educational, we’ve talked
with, our initial answers were in terms of the technological
legacy of the project and the educational legacy of the project is just as important. Probably, I don’t know what
Anne would say in terms of which was more important for him, but the educational side of
it was very important to him. – Okay, so let me open it
up, either to further address this question or to ask
question to the panel. But if you don’t want to, I’ll
try to repeat your question. Otherwise, appreciate it if
you try and use the mic, but – And let me just make a
comment while the first one is getting out there, there’s
a bunch of people in the room who did just as much as
any of us with the project, so don’t feel like you have to
address questions just to the people who happened to get
stuck up here in these chairs. (audience laughs) – And also, please identify
yourself for the film. – Right, I’m Bill Gord, I
graduated from here in 1974, although I continue to identify
myself as a class of ’69. I did wanna address the command line thing you were talking about. After the Control Data
3600, which was purely a scientific machine, piles
of card decks, wait in line for two or three days to get your job run, while the tapes get found,
and back and all that. Ken was very much wanting the students, undergraduate students
access to the machine. That’s when the whole
interactive DITRAN thing started up in the well,
’68, ’69 timeframe. But after that, it was
important to Ken to get a real computer on campus and
that’s when the Burroughs 6900 came on the site, I’m sorry, 6500, which became a 6700. And again, showing Ken’s
commitments to undergraduates, I was the undergraduate that
was on that selection committee picking a whole new campus computer. But one of the, staying with
the theme of the command line. We were fortunate to be able
to have graphics terminals. We had a lot of teletypes,
but we had a few graphics terminals, some
Tektronix some other things, I don’t remember all the
brands, and there was a program on the Burroughs machine
called CANDE, C-A-N-D-E, Command AND Edit. And it was a very command
line oriented thing. And my mentor at the
time, Dr. Darrell High, who was a chemist,
transferred over to computing before I got involved,
he had gone off to the Burroughs Corporation and
actually worked more on CANDE to make it better. But I would like to
assert without proof that Ken was very well aware of
that command line interface on glass terminals. And that that would have been in his mind as he moved into UCSD Pascal. I left before UCSD Pascal was
established, it was forming. I think I met you. But that’s a long time ago, – my brain’s somewhere else,
– Yeah, me too. – Yeah, and so I just
wanna say that there’s, Ken had some drag along
from just his own history to bring in that command line interface. And I can talk about
that whole area more than you wanna hear so I’ll just sit down. – So certainly, the
interactivity was there. It wasn’t a command, a single letter prompt tree of commands,
it was a MS DOS style type of command. – [Audience member] It
was a precursor of MS DOS, there was no MS DOS yet, there was no MS. – Hi, my name is, good afternoon, my name is Tom Tipurtzer,
I graduated in ’79, with a degree in computer
science and took my first course at the APUS 61, and so I think the legacy is the impact on education. I can attest personally,
thank God I took UCSD Pascal, APUS 61 it was called at the time. Before I took Fortran or COBOL. And, I can tell you with
the conviction of every bone in my body, there’s probably
thousands of students just like me, that had our
first introduction to computers been Fortran or COBOL, we would have gone a different direction. For sure, certainly for myself personally. The other thing I can attest
to is I was fortunate enough in the ’80s and ’90s to
travel all over the world and it would always surprise me to hear somebody talk
about learning programming from UCSD Pascal. And I’m talking to Australia,
Germany, or the UK, some really exotic places
like Texas and North Carolina, Boston, and here’s the interesting thing. it wasn’t just the students who graduated with a degree in computer science,
there’s a whole generation of self taught programmers
that learned with UCSD Pascal. That’s fantastic. And so I think that’s a great thing. Thank you. – My name’s Doug Bell,
I never went to UCSD. I know people that knew Ken Bowles, but I never knew Ken Bowles. I did port the SofTech P-system, the generic 68K version to the Atari ST, so that might be my claim
to fame with UCSD Pascal. But my question was,
if, it seems to me that the P system, and the editor
and the compiler and everything around it was really the
precursor to the modern IDE. I mean, Porland and THINK C,
and there were some others that really made it a
much more useful thing and that it knew about when
it started to know about your whole project, but I
can’t think of earlier sort of integrated environment
where you had all the pieces working together like that. And so I was wondering
what your take on that was, and I’ll leave you to answer. – So there was, benefit to being old. IBM had an APL machine. That was a full integrated
development environment. So it was about the same time
as we were doing UCSD Pascal, – And interpretive as I recall, – It was interpretive as well. – That was earlier, that
was the early 1970s. We used to use it on Techtronic terminals. I think the point here
is that a lot of people came up with different pieces. What I will say was part
of the genius of Ken, in addition to being able
to put people together, to work together and
that kind of thing, were how he managed to bring the
best parts of different things and put them together in
a very synergistic way. Recognizing early on, the
possibility for microcomputers that’s we called them before
they were personal computers. Seymour Papert and the turtle
graphics, the ideas about programming in terms of
integrating encapsulation, the Karel plan, self
paced method of teaching, putting things, it’s that type
of integration as opposed to the type of silo thinking that
one so often sees where even if there’s multiple things,
there’s a central silo and the things are tacking on. So all of these things, I
think, if there’s a lesson to be taken away from the Pascal
project, it’s probably the value of the integration of different
things and the respect that different things have for each other. – My name is Kathy Herring Hayashi, I’m in the class of ’82 computer science. And I guess the topics
that I wanna bring up is the impact of Pascal. But first of all, I’m with
Revelle college and as a junior, they said that I couldn’t go
on unless I picked a major. And I was I was mystified I
was like, “what am I gonna do? “What am I gonna pick?” And what I said was well, and
the counselor just asked me, “What is it that you enjoy
out of all your classes? “What did you enjoy?” Well, I had taken a class
called APUS 61 or EEK 61, and I said, “Well, I liked
making those flowers, “I thought that was pretty good.” And in my background is
as a kid, I look back, and I’d done spiral
graphs, and I’d done those, the groovy flower things, and it’s like, oh, I’ve always liked that. But in terms of education and impact, it touched me in a place
that made sense, right? And after that, so the
counselor quickly wrote down my name as computer science,
I noticed how quickly they did that. But then after that, I
enjoyed the next two years for getting a computer science degree. And I went on to work at Burroughs. And I did all the CANDE,
and I did the Pascal. And I’ve been in computer
science ever since then. In fact, in semiconductor
development, and so I hope that you understand the impact
that you’ve made in terms of, Kenneth Bowle’s legacy,
is one is the education, yes, touching the people,
making sure it was a way that I understood it, and then
the impact is I care. That makes sense. And I use that and apply it,
in fact, I could even say today that the things that I learned
then are impactful today. So I was wondering, and just
as a question for you all is, did you even, your scope is
huge and your impact is amazing, and thank you. Did you know that that
the impact that you had in those production code and
the impact that people that, I’m still in the industry and loving tech, and I’ve gotta say it’s
because of the way that I was introduced to computer science. So were you aware of the
impact that you made? – That’s great, thanks for sharing that. (crowd laughing) – I think the answer is no. (crowd laughing) – Not until now. – Okay, am I next? Okay yeah, I’m Barry Demchak,
I was on the Pascal project as well. – Video star. – Yeah, video star, yeah, okay. So, two things for the record
that I should point out is that what I think was
unique in APUS 61, the class, was the participation and
organization of tutors, the orchestrator of which
was Keith Shillington, I’m pretty sure. And so, I’ve never seen
a lab organzed that way so prolifically and extensively,
as that until along comes Rick Ord, who’s a Lecturer
Emeritus here, who I think can count hundreds of students
that he enlisted as tutors in his classes and gives
frequent credit to Ken Bowles. And so I wanna point out that
that organization of students teaching students was
pretty darn effective. And it has legs. But the other thing that I
don’t think has been raised here is the concept of units, which are to say separate compilation modules. At the time that we were
working on that system, I think that deck had
separate compilation modules that could be linked in. That was no big trick, we
did that too, eventually. But what we also created were
dynamically linked units. I think that Mark Overgaard
had a lot to do with that. And the I think Rich Cleaves did too. And so those were the predecessors
of dynamic link library. Now if you wanna then
postulate that DLL hell can be traced back to the Pascal
project, that’s up to you. – I wanna build on that
in two ways very briefly, first of all, at UC Irvine, we
imported the teaching of our introductory programming
class and saw many, well, we also imported Dennis Volper, which was also a very good move. But having said that, we saw
exactly that the proctors, the tutors, we did some very
creative things to get around university restrictions
as to who could teach who. But what I will tell you
is I followed the careers of many of those people who
had the opportunity to teach proctor whatever and
transmit their knowledge. And they’ve gone on to some
very influential places. I won’t list them out, but
what I will say is this idea of who you learn with, as
opposed to who you learn from, it went in multiple directions. The second thing is the idea, and this is true of a number of things, dynamically linked libraries,
graphically oriented, street oriented things, those
things did in fact exist. I’ll go back to the history books, and will find them different places, but UCSD Pascal put them out there. Never mind for the people
who are the cognoscente in UC academia, or UC industry,
but all across the world. And I think that it’s
not necessarily always who’s first with it, but
how do you get it out there in a way that’s accessible to people? And that’s another real contribution, the democratization of a lot of this stuff that otherwise might have just died in. – A more fundamental
part of democratization, John mentioned it, but how
many people in the room kind of got through
school, partially funded by UCSD Pascal? (laughter) – I got a scholarship, financial
aid, and I gotta tell you, I got out of UCSD with four
years with like $2,000 in loans which was insanely wonderful. – Now did you wanna to
make a comment on the Bowle scholarship and
potential for donations to it? – Great lead in, I love that. What a set up, you get the
shot, he gets the assist. – Yes, no. – Free out your checkbooks. – Right, no, a lot of
people have benefited from a lot of people, Ken and
I think the whole project and if people wanna give
back, I think there are great opportunities to do that, certainly, the Ken Bowles scholarship, – You make some money
off of the royalties? – And certainly that has had an impact. And that is part of our
current legacy, right? Is getting that jumpstart. And, but yeah, there’s
some great opportunities. I think they’re important
because we still have so many students come through that have needs and are struggling in similar ways. – My name is Ray Kazi, I
was on the Pascal project from 78 to 80, and I
was in the training lab. That’s kind of what my bailiwick was, I took over the grading
system, I think you wrote it, didn’t you Richard originally,
or did you write it Keith? – [Keith] We worked on it together. – Yeah, so I was part of the
other side of the project. Not the not the part
that made a lot of money, the part that taught the
students and my recollection of Ken was we were involved
with the part where we were moving from Teraks to Apples. And going from a non-networked
lab to a networked lab and trying to connect together
Ethernet networks with parallel cables before you
could figure out how to do that. And Ken would walk over
and go, “Figure it out, “Let me know if you have a
problem,” and he’d walk off. And then we were doing some
other stuff, and he’d go, “Have any problems?” “No, we’ll figure it out.” “Okay, good.” So what it taught me
was, I was an undergrad. He had faith in the people
that worked on the project that they could figure out stuff
that had never been done before. Without sitting there going,
“Do this, do this, do this” and having Mark describe
everything and then undergrads go work on it. He empowered all of the
people on the project to do their job and it
affected my entire career. So that when I became into
management and I had people reporting to me, I was the
CIO of a number of companies. I had directors come to me,
I said, “Never come to me “with a problem without
having two options.” Because that means you’ve figured it out, I get to pick which one and
that’s the way Ken did things. So if we had a problem, we
said, “I got this thing, I could do it this way or this way,” and he’d walk us through it, but he let us figure out the problems. And that to me, is the
legacy that he left me. – All right, we’ve gone way
over time, but I have not seen any dirty looks from the audience. I don’t think people mind
but any last comments that any of you wanna make? – Wanna thank you for the
opportunity to get us together. – Yes, very much.
– Thank you. (audience clapping) (upbeat music)

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